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  #196  
Old 06-01-2010, 19:35
sipraomer sipraomer is offline
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[quote=Seeker;34032]Allah's justice demands that the good are rewarded and the bad are punished in proportion to the deeds.

If this is the case, then hell is not eternal for all. Right?

----------------------
In God's scheme of justice, humans enjoy freedom of choice,


Answer Given.


For believers this means do as I say or burn for some time in hell.

Answer . It is not for believers only but for all. And if the believers do bad deeds more than good deeds they will also burn in hell but for a limited period. Here lazy believers are being discussed and not the hypocrites. The hypocrites will be punished more than the non believers.

For non believers who are good souls, what happens?

Answer . They will enjoy the rewards of good deeds in this world only. As we see that the majority of western citizens tell the truth , are honest and hard working and that is why they are enjoying progress. But they will burn in hell for not believing in the oneness of God.

For non believers who are not so good, what happens?

Answer. Obviously they will also burn in hell.

---------------------------
Islam teaches that if we deliberately and knowingly reject God and His Guidance, we knowingly choose eternal Hell;

What happens to us if we just do not believe in Allah or any God.
A pure secularist with no religion?

Answer. They will also burn in hell. Going to heaven has only one straight way and that is to believe in one God and follow his orders.
  #197  
Old 06-01-2010, 19:37
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Originally Posted by sipraomer View Post
The chance of repentence is given in this world only. The heaven or hell is the final destination.

There is a saying of our Prophet that if our eyes are low because of shame in the last moments of our life for the repentence of the evil deeds done. At that time also God will forgive us.
You limit Allah's mercy?
Tsk tsk.

Regards
DL
  #198  
Old 06-01-2010, 19:39
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Could you expand on these last 5 or 6 words for me please?

Regards
DL
You seem to imply that Allah is God of Muslims, or there are gods for different religions. There is only One God. There is no god of Muslims, or god of christiains, or god of jews, or whatsoever religion.

We take exception when though ignorance it is said that Allah is a Muslim divinity. Am I right that is what you think?
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  #199  
Old 06-01-2010, 19:56
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You seem to imply that Allah is God of Muslims, or there are gods for different religions. There is only One God. There is no god of Muslims, or god of christiains, or god of jews, or whatsoever religion.

We take exception when though ignorance it is said that Allah is a Muslim divinity. Am I right that is what you think?
I think that we have the same God but that we see His rules and attributes differently because I have had an apotheosis.

Children are shown the rules through parable.

Adults are shown the rules in other ways.

To me parable is fantasy and the Word, all Words, are the best guess that Constantine's money could buy.

There is wisdom in all Words of whatever religion. If as you say, your God is a universalistic type of God, then this is something you know.

Regards
DL
  #200  
Old 07-01-2010, 00:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
I think that we have the same God but that we see His rules and attributes differently because I have had an apotheosis.

Children are shown the rules through parable.

Adults are shown the rules in other ways.

To me parable is fantasy and the Word, all Words, are the best guess that Constantine's money could buy.

There is wisdom in all Words of whatever religion. If as you say, your God is a universalistic type of God, then this is something you know.

Regards
DL
Tell us about the apotheosis you have had. Don't do a long explanatory exercise, be brief to be easy to be understood.
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  #201  
Old 07-01-2010, 13:39
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Tell us about the apotheosis you have had. Don't do a long explanatory exercise, be brief to be easy to be understood.
While in the spirit, God showed His existence and reality to me. I entered the Godhead.
My religious views and world views were confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically.
Part of my religious views is that God does not break the laws of physics or nature and that there are therefore no miracles or fantasy entities in this world.

Regards
DL
  #202  
Old 07-01-2010, 13:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
While in the spirit, God showed His existence and reality to me. I entered the Godhead.
My religious views and world views were confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically.
Part of my religious views is that God does not break the laws of physics or nature and that there are therefore no miracles or fantasy entities in this world.

Regards
DL

So do you believe in God?

Do you think of yourself as god-like, or with God's power, as apotheosis entails that?

What do you mean by Godhead? Do you say there are more than one God?

On your contact with Godhead, where is your evidence? Weren't you fantasyzing? Your brain playing tricks on you?

What's the difference between your experience and that of past prophets?

On your religious views what is then the role of God if He does not break the laws of physics? What are the laws of physics?

You state there are no miracles? So do you say Jesus did not do any miracles?

On fantasy entities what are these fantasy entities? How do you know that these entities don't exist? Did Godhead tell you?
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  #203  
Old 07-01-2010, 14:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayeb View Post
So do you believe in God?
Not the miracle working super God that most believe in.
We cannot know if that one ever existed.
If He ever did, He was either consumed or destroyed by the big bang and all we can see is the perfection of our beginnings within an evolutionary system.

Quote:
Do you think of yourself as god-like, or with God's power, as apotheosis entails that?
We would need to define and agree on what power God actually has for me to answer properly.

Scripture says --to be as Gods, knowing good and evil.

I know some of good and evil. I evolve that knowledge to the best of my ability.

I would say that apotheosis gave me knowledge of the working of God reasoning and I would add rapprochement to God in the definition of apotheosis. A getting closer to God's thinking.


Quote:
What do you mean by Godhead? Do you say there are more than one God?
There is only one God or Godhead. We all end within It. In this we have no choice. God does not lose any souls. As befits a loving God.

Quote:
On your contact with Godhead, where is your evidence? Weren't you fantasyzing? Your brain playing tricks on you?
As stated elsewhere, the old prophets were venerated, new ones are thought delusional or in this case, fantasizing. I did expect your remark and judgment. It does not surprise me and I do not resent doubt. Doubt drives away gullibility.
It protects you here yet it did not for your Word.

Allow it to protect me as it does you.

You cannot believe that someone spoke with God yet can believe in Satan and angels and jinn and other fantasy entities. Interesting.

I have no more evidence for the Godhead I found than any other religion has ever produced for their Gods.
Do you have evidence for yours? No. Neither do I.
We have all been looking for evidence for 6000 years. We still seek today.

Quote:
What's the difference between your experience and that of past prophets?
I cannot judge that which I do not know.
The reporting is different. IO believe that the ancients made the Gods they found with the epitome of all attributes. They overbuilt.
I do not add attributes to the Godhead I found. The ancients may have seen profit in doing so. I do not.

Quote:
On your religious views what is then the role of God if He does not break the laws of physics? What are the laws of physics?
Google will answer that science question for you. Physics is a long list.

The role of the Godhead is to just wait for the souls to join it. It does not actively seek to help us or contact us but if reached by a seeker, it does give information. That is the only role that it has as far as I can tell.

This may be because of free will. If It contacted us, then that is interference.

Quote:
You state there are no miracles? So do you say Jesus did not do any miracles?
Yes.
Quote:
On fantasy entities what are these fantasy entities? How do you know that these entities don't exist? Did Godhead tell you?
Yes, when it confirmed my view of religion and nature.

Regards
DL
  #204  
Old 07-01-2010, 15:09
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Dear DL,

After reading carefully what you wrote, let me say I respect your views, but we stand apart.

As I said before you and your beliefs and we as Muslims with our beliefs. We stand apart.

Thanks for clarifying. There is nothing more to be discussed as I think it is a waste of time.

I think you think you are a kind of prophet, perhaps you want to preach your beliefs. We don't allow preaching of other beliefs here. So please refrain from commenting like ..".yet can believe in Satan and angels and jinn and other fantasy entities...".

There is also no room to discussion as you think you are not fantasyzing yet you accuse us to be. You have no evidence that you are not on a fantasy trip, so you have no higher moral ground to accuse others of something that you may be accused of.
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  #205  
Old 07-01-2010, 16:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayeb View Post
Dear DL,

After reading carefully what you wrote, let me say I respect your views, but we stand apart.

As I said before you and your beliefs and we as Muslims with our beliefs. We stand apart.

Thanks for clarifying. There is nothing more to be discussed as I think it is a waste of time.

I think you think you are a kind of prophet, perhaps you want to preach your beliefs. We don't allow preaching of other beliefs here. So please refrain from commenting like ..".yet can believe in Satan and angels and jinn and other fantasy entities...".

There is also no room to discussion as you think you are not fantasyzing yet you accuse us to be. You have no evidence that you are not on a fantasy trip, so you have no higher moral ground to accuse others of something that you may be accused of.
Thanks for the discussion. We will both live with our perceived fantasies and realities then.

Regards
DL
  #206  
Old 07-01-2010, 19:47
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Thanks for your understanding.
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  #207  
Old 07-01-2010, 20:17
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I don't know if you wil appreciate a very old post here at myiwc.com. I was drawn attention to this poem by Roger Garaudy's book "Dialogue between civilisations".

The dialogue of Candle and Moth
by Sheik Saadi
in Boostan-e Saadi, Chapter 3 (On Love and Intoxication and Joy)




One night, as I lay awake, I heard a moth say to a candle, "I am thy lover; if I burn, it is proper. Why dost thou weep?"

The candle replied, "O, my friend! Love is not thy business. Thou fliest from before a flame; I stand erect until I am entirely consumed. If the fire of love has burned thy wings, regard me, who from head to foot must be destroyed."

Before the night had passed, someone put the candle out, exclaiming, "Such is the end of love!"

Grieve not over the grave of one who lost his life for his friend; be glad of heart, for he was the chosen of Him.

I thou art a lover, wash not thy head of the sickness of love; like Saa'di, wash thy hands of selfishness.

A devoted lover holds not back his hand from the object of his affections though arrows and stones may rain upon his head.

Be cautious; if thou goest down to the sea, give thyself up the storm.



Inspired by this Poem Shahriar Shahriari wrote:


A Love Story

A lonely moth towards the light made his flight
In his love for the candle faced his plight
Flying to the fire would bravely display
His love for the candle in his own way
Hovering around the flame in love's name
He played a risky game no one to blame
Noticing candle's tears he just had to ask
I am the one in love, why this tearful mask?
Don't you see I am the one burning his wings
Yet for love, to his life, no moth clings
You don't need to shed tears for my life
In this love, my only hope is my strife.

The candle steadily burnt with constant flame
Amazed at the ignorant moth's lack of shame
Since the day my sweetheart left my wax
Separated and apart, I can't relax
This flame that you see upon my head
Is the fire that my love's light may spread
To the whole world. My honey perhaps by chance
May see my longing, in a distant glance.

You may fly, hover, even singe your wing
I will stand on fire, bearing its sting
Love is not to frit and fret and display
Love is to quietly burn night and day
Love is not to burn a wing and then fall
Love is to be on fire standing tall.
You may burn your wing, yet you'll never know
What it means to burn from your head to toe
Fault me not if I shed a tear or two
It is for my sweetheart not the likes of you.

At this point the gathering stirred about
The hostess, with a blow, put the candle out
The smoke rose from the blackened wick
Spreading its odor throughout, quick
The candle with a quiet sigh simply said
Though my light is out, my love is not dead
This smoke that is coming from my head
Is aroma of my love that I spread
Then I just will sit here, patiently wait
For the next night's gathering, and my fate
This may give me a chance with the flame's dance
To shine my light for a glance, my dream romance
I'll continue this till the end of my time
Spread my love to every land and clime
Either with my beloved become one
Or spread so far and wide till I'm gone.

This was candle and moth's love story
A tale of bravery and quiet glory
True love is not for the strong and the brave
True love is lasting, testing to the grave
In your life if it is love that you must taste
Patiently, quietly burn, make no haste
If it's the ocean of love you must sail
Be willing to navigate and then fail
Because love has no size and no form
Be willing to lose your ship in the storm.

© Shahriar Shahriari
Los Angeles, CA
December 26, 2001

originally posted here t myiwc: http://www.myiwc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5406
  #208  
Old 07-01-2010, 20:48
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Thanks for this.

Regards
  #209  
Old 13-02-2010, 08:08
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You limit Allah's mercy?
Tsk tsk.

Regards
DL
How I have limited it. Please elaborate. What I have said it that even in the last moments of life God can forgive us if we do ask forgiveness sincerely. How I have limited it. I have described his vast mercy instead.
  #210  
Old 13-02-2010, 14:47
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How I have limited it. Please elaborate. What I have said it that even in the last moments of life God can forgive us if we do ask forgiveness sincerely. How I have limited it. I have described his vast mercy instead.
Vast mercy to only those who know him.
To those who do not know him, hell forever.
Injustice.

Is it justice that a man can only sin for 120 years and then must suffer in hell for 1200000000000000000000000000+ years?

You limit God by saying that he cannot have mercy on those who do not know him or reject him.

You make God a slave to us just as scripture says that he wants to make slaves of us.

Man's best destiny to you then must be man as slave forever to God.
Surely any good God would have a better destiny planned for mankind.

Regards
DL
 


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