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  #1  
Old 06-09-2005, 16:40
Karim33 Karim33 is offline
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Exclamation Why and how christians went astray because of ("apostle") Paul:

PARTS CONTAINING CHANGES ON RED:

LOOK FIRST AT THIS PICTURE ABOUT MUSLIM-DOMINATED AREA, AND "KINGDOM OF GOD" PROPHECY BY JESUS ABOUT IT, ONLY ALLAH COULD DO THIS:

http://www.geocities.com/bible_and_history/cover1.gif

Compare these:

PAUL, BEAST (“WOLF IN LAMBS CLOTHING”) HIMSELF! (Allah knows best)

Notice how Jesus described false prophets as Paul described himself, by words (doing) “SIGNS” and “MIRACLES”:

Matt.24:23. “At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24. For false Christ’s and false prophets will appear and perform great SIGNS and MIRACLES to deceive even the elect (disciplines) - if that were possible. 25. See, I have told you ahead of time (told YOU, disciplines, as a warning). 26. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' (Paul’s "Jesus revelation" on road to Damascus) do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' ("Jesus-revelation" in prison) do not believe it (Mohammed did not claim to have seen Jesus in desert/house, nor say to be Messiah/Christ)….28. Wherever the corpse is (new religion), there the vultures will gather (satan strikes).”

2.Corinth.12:12. “When I was with you, I certainly gave you every proof that I am truly an apostle, sent to you by God himself. For I patiently did many SIGNS and wonders and MIRACLES among you.”


From Dead Sea scrolls of Qumran, it can be clearly seen that Deut.32:8 declared that Jews were not only nation to have prophets, as Christians and Jews claim, but that ”sons of God” have been given to numerous nations as Islam teaches. This is how this part went in Greek text:
"When the Most High assigned lands to the nations, when he divided up the human race, he established the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of (Qumran: ”sons of God”) angelic beings."

As in Dead Sea Scrolls, which read of the sons of God, and Greek version, which reads of the angels of god. Can word of God have so great conflict in matter so important, dividing religions? Problem really is in interpretations and understanding past times. Old Testament (Jewish) Bible is full of "sons of God" (son written with big first letter is Greek invention, as Hebrew does not have small or big letters), and so is called almost all prophets in Bible, even Adam (who had not even mother according to Bible, Koran does not deny even that he had mother/(HUMAN!)father, see beginning of astronomy/human development links and introduction). But times of persecution Matt.24:23-28 is talking about, came:

Thing is that it is FIGURE OF SPEECH for Jews, words describing someone very important for God (even Jesus himself answered accusations about using word "son of God" that "doesn’t your writings say: ´they were gods´?"). Adam, Jacob, Saul, David, Salomon, Jesus.... and many others, enough examples? Just write "son of god" into search engine on some Bible-site and you see. Jews understood that, as according to acts of apostles Jews allowed Christians to use synagogues even though they knew how Jesus was called, as Jews themselves have had prophets who were accepted by many other Jews but not by all. Jews never would have let Christians to worship Jesus as god in synagogue, so that is proof that early Christians thought him only as prophet. In fact EVERYTHING is figure of speech, as speech has only meanings that has been given for it. That is why in Islam Allah has 99 extra-names. He just shows that He makes us to call Him as He wishes. Jesus called Allah as "Father" because he wanted to make distinction between Jewish names of God and coming of Islam, to reduce conflicts on that. But situation changed:

As Paul had permission from apostles to teach pagans (Jesus himself said in Matt.15:24 that "I have not been sent but for lost sheep’s of house of Israel", and in the end mission-order meant "nations" of Israel, as there had been 13 of them), and had permission not to "bother" them by Torah or law, most pagan-Christians did not understand correctly "son of God"-term. After Jewish Christianity was almost totally wiped out by Romans in destruction of Jerusalem, pagan-Christians did came as dominant sect of Christianity and modern churches are based on their beliefs.

Paul tried to kill ALL Christians, he had army for that, but noticed that Christians just flew to other towns ("turn other cheek") and spread their message. So he understood that only possibility is to destroy threat to Judaism from inside, spreading twisted form of faith to large areas until it overcomes rest. He even send Ananias ("new Christian" according to Bible) before him to confirm his "revelations of Jesus" to another Christians, and so got credibility among Christians. That is evil. What gives more credibility to Paul than for example to Mormon-prophet Joseph Smith, who also claimed to have seen Jesus? Of course that was will of Allah too, but there is a time-limit until full responsibility is over People of the Book (Quran 2:62, and in 65:7 “Allah puts no burden on any person beyond what He has given him”.), that separates them from pagans who are not judged only if they are "people without knowledge (about Islam)", and have not be introduced to Islam (as it is almost everywhere in Asia and Africa introduced, but still lack of literacy and information, like internet, is limiting knowledge about Islam there, as it has arrived so to west especially).

Until (late) 20th century Koran was not even translated to most European languages, and there were only few Muslims in Europe. In Asia Islam has been for thousand years everywhere (33% population Muslims), but in China and Vietnam/Laos communism and relatively small/local Muslim-populations postpone knowledge about Islam and so full judgment on "pagans", in Africa (50% Muslims) nearly only rainforest and southern areas were animistic (now Christian) where Islam had not arrived. So in fact pagans have either knew about Islam, accept it or not and be judged, or not knew about it. Christians have always KNEW ABOUT ISLAM as it has been their rivalry and very close to them, but they have NOT KNOWN what ISLAM IS ABOUT (for People of the Book this matches same as total lack of knowledge for pagan).

When that time is up, and knowledge of Islam has come for everyone (like in internet), no Christian has no excuse why they did not learn about Islam, then curse of Paul has its full affect, and many are going to hell because of him. On the other hand, Jesus told about shepherd who got that one lost sheep out of hundred back to safety in desert/mountain (depends on evangelium, both describe very well dominative natural conditions in Muslim-countries), that represents those few chosen one’s from Christians who through Bible understood that Islam is right religion (like me), and possibly move to Islamic country in safety (no need anymore for that in secularism, but in middle ages definitely, if pagans had ruled in Europe/America/Africa, then not one had got alive into Muslim-world).


As you see, Christians can be accepting Islam through Bible, even if they thought that it is corrupted (but Quran can not help bible), if given good and accurate enough explanations and descriptions. In this case of beginning of my writing, proofs against Paul as evil who messed Christianity is important. (26)


This was from my book in:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/
__________________
This all was from my NEW (upraged and corrected) book in:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/

or in (at moment not yet totally upraged version, SMALL differences):

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/

Covers and amazing prophecy of Jesus compared to dominantly Islamic area:

http://www.geocities.com/science_in_quran/cover1

Last edited by Karim33 : 10-10-2005 at 13:22. Reason: Something new:
  #2  
Old 20-09-2005, 22:42
acts412 acts412 is offline
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No one comes to the Father exept through me (Jesus).

Jesus talking with his disciples:

John 14:6-7

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Unfortunately Karim33, Jesus is the only way to God.
  #3  
Old 20-09-2005, 23:18
Netcurtains3 Netcurtains3 is offline
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No acts412,

Karim33 is right when he says:
"Paul tried to kill ALL Christians, he had army for that.."

All right all right, just taking the mick (as Karim33 is probably doing as well).

[ADMIN: I have removed the paragraph that was here. I request you to be respectful of Muhammad and other prophets as your irreverence is against our rules. I won't hesitate in gining you warning points if you don't measure your words. For sake of record I have saved the paragraph elsewhere]

In reality we have evidence (from very recent events) that organised Pauline Christianity is in fact a force used by the poor to over-throw fascist states and the ruling junta elites. We saw in the collapse of communism in East Germany and Poland a use of Churches to fight the state. You can argue that Christianity itself was a religion set up by poor people for poor people, against powerful people. Christianity became too powerful (and thus corrupt) by its own success of promoting the well being of poor people against the rich. Eventually the Church itself became rich and corrupt and this enabled the rich state (eg Henry 8th, French Revolutionaries and German Princes) to take all the church wealth away again. Today, the poor and hudled masses of the 1900 exodus to the USA now dominate the world. Today, apparently, to be classified "the poor" in the USA still puts you 40% over the world average income. If Pauline Christianity goes the same way in USA as the European model the USA will decline because the rest of the world will fall out of love with all things American and others will attempt to be more aggressive against America. Less people will want Microsoft, Pepsi, BigMacs, and Levi's simply because they will represent the boss. After the retreat, no doubt Christianity's centre of gravity will be elsewhere, perhaps the Philipines.

Where ever the working class want to take control without violence there you will meet Pauline Christianity, and probably Jesus too. Be poor, work for peace, put flowers in your hair, be nice to people, but don't trust bosses.

Net

Last edited by Netcurtains3 : 21-09-2005 at 07:00.
  #4  
Old 21-09-2005, 20:16
Netcurtains3 Netcurtains3 is offline
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Respect?

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/respect.html

Root: From latin "To View"

On your rule page you say "no attacks on mohammed"...

I do not think it an "attack" for a non-muslim to view Mohammed as a leader or boss and as such a potential enemy of the working class proleteriate. Unless Mohammed allowed the equivalent of Trade Unions and or strike action in any area that was under his control. Did he, for example, improve the working conditions of the slave classes in society?

Anyway I don't see why you edited my reply Karim33's is far more risky to put on a Muslim board. Its pretty clear to people who read novels that Karim33 had a metaphor in mind when he wrote:

"Paul tried to kill ALL Christians, he had army for that, but noticed that Christians just flew to other towns"

And that metaphor is for an Islamic figure - just look at his first picture for the clue.

Net.

Last edited by Netcurtains3 : 22-09-2005 at 07:01.
  #5  
Old 22-09-2005, 10:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acts412
Jesus talking with his disciples:

John 14:6-7

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Unfortunately Karim33, Jesus is the only way to God.
Jesus didn't just "fly in" from heaven, he'd a human mother, she became pregnant as human females do. He'd all the growing up pangs, tummy aches, toothing and whatever. He'd human necessities and ate "kosher" flesh. Sorry for us Jesus is a prophet of God, a human being there's nothing divine in him. In fact he said he didn't come to break the law of his forefathers.

You say "Jesus is the only way to God", then you'll say Jesus is god. That's the aim of chrisitians. You beleive in divinity of Jesus and we don't.
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  #6  
Old 22-09-2005, 10:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3
Respect?

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/respect.html

Root: From latin "To View"

On your rule page you say "no attacks on mohammed"...

I do not think it an "attack" for a non-muslim to view Mohammed as a leader or boss and as such a potential enemy of the working class proleteriate. Unless Mohammed allowed the equivalent of Trade Unions and or strike action in any area that was under his control. Did he, for example, improve the working conditions of the slave classes in society?

Anyway I don't see why you edited my reply Karim33's is far more risky to put on a Muslim board. Its pretty clear to people who read novels that Karim33 had a metaphor in mind when he wrote:

"Paul tried to kill ALL Christians, he had army for that, but noticed that Christians just flew to other towns"

And that metaphor is for an Islamic figure - just look at his first picture for the clue.

Net.
Now suddenly you support the working class when you have always shown interest in being of ruling classes, didn't you favour conservatives in UK? Have you googled somewhere and found out that Muhammad was in favour of ruling classes? Stop the humbug Netcurtains and have a fair discussion. Here in this topic Jesus is being discussed and not Muhammad.

I am not here to respond on behalf of Karim. It's his thread. But I am giving you a public warning to be respectful of Muhammad as you are in risk of being altogether banned from myiwc.com without any further warnings.
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  #7  
Old 22-09-2005, 11:46
Netcurtains3 Netcurtains3 is offline
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Hi,
I vote conservative because IR35 is a punitive tax against the self employed.
Plumbers, Brick-Layers, Cleaners, Computer Programmers, Small shop-keepers, etc make up 50% of the work force. They are not the boss class, they are the independent working-class, the class that is the back-bone of most nation states. Most of us are poor. 90% of small businesses go bust in the first year. Some small businesses have to work 7 days a week to survive.

Jesus, if he existed, comes to us via 2 sources.
First source is Matthew, Mark and Luke. Both Mark and Luke appear to be followers of St Paul. Matthew copied chunks of Mark and probably was a Greek jew - almost certainly another follower of Paul. So, this thread has to discount these sources altogether. We then get the gospel of John. From the fragments found, this gospel might be the earliest but its probably been heavily edited (with new endings) over time. The start though, probably has remained consistent:

"
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
"

I'm not actually just getting at you Tayeb, US Catholics don't seem to like my posts either:

http://forums.catholic-convert.com/v...ic.php?t=39399

Three things strike me:
1. Religionists can dish it out but they can't take when its dished back.
2. Faith is currently very weak in the world, in all religions, and I should not be so negative as its hurting the few that are left.
3. Being too religious is anti Pauline....
http://forums.catholic-convert.com/v...ic.php?t=39790


Net

Last edited by Netcurtains3 : 22-09-2005 at 11:49.
  #8  
Old 22-09-2005, 15:27
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Dear Netcurtains:

Nobody has any mission of converting anyone here. Our purpose is to present the true nature of Islam and try to demystify some of views there are on Islam.

Of course we have our rules, and we have shown to be tolerant, unless the language becomes excessive. This is a private forum and we have the right to place limits. If you don't like the limitations that's though.

On dishing out I also take exception of this word because we don't say insulting things about any faith or are incorrect with any of the members. If you mean by dishing back to be disrespectful to all that we hold dear, we won't accept this dishing back.

Ma'a-salaama,
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  #9  
Old 25-09-2005, 15:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acts412
Jesus talking with his disciples:

John 14:6-7

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Unfortunately Karim33, Jesus is the only way to God.

Technically speaking this quote could apply to any of us in a number of ways as it seems our success in life is not just dependant on our own work but the work of others and how the empower or disempower us and it seems it does not matter whether they are good and bad as we end up getting to the same place anyway however if we are empowered to be our best the journey has fewer Mountains to climb or at least ones we can tackle with confidence.

If everyone could get over issues of jealousy, pain and suffering from thier past maybe they could in healthier and happier ways let their own light shine as a leader and inspire others to follow.

Though we may believe we are a catastrophy of a life lived all is not lost there is hope for redemption, salvation and ressurrection and rebirth or renewal. It begins with starting to believe in yourself and being more positive even though it seems a real challenge there is hope in yourself, others and your Community and you are the hope of these people as well.

Accepting responsibility for your life and the life of your family, friends and community and making a difference by getting some training and education you can turn your life around.

Especially if you were abused, self abusive or being abusive to others there are places in the community you can go for some guidance, it may take more than one try to get to talk to a counselor or peer support however you are worth the effort and so is your family, community and Nation.

May Allah Bless You on Your Journey

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi
  #10  
Old 26-09-2005, 17:59
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Assalamu-alaikum and greetings:

The original author of this thread Karim 33 hasn't come back to respond despite our email requests to him. We needed him for sake of debate.

Anyhow as it's not leading us to any tanglible and interesting debate I'm going to lock this thread.

Ma'a-salaama,
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  #11  
Old 10-10-2005, 12:35
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I have unclocked the thead at Br Karim's request. We request Br Karim to read rule no. 8
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  #12  
Old 10-10-2005, 13:31
Karim33 Karim33 is offline
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Question Who told you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acts412
Jesus talking with his disciples:

John 14:6-7

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Unfortunately Karim33, Jesus is the only way to God.
According to Islam and Quran, ALL Muslims HAVE TO believe in ALL PROPHETS in ordain to be saved, so also to Jesus. And ALL people are judged in front of ALL prophets.

Also according to hadiths Jesus was meeting Mohammed (puh) in first parts of heaven when Mohammed ascended to heaven when he was sleeping, so Jesus is also between most highest heaven and all the rest.

Religions believing into Jesus, Christianity and Islam (also religions of Abraham), contain more than 50% from world population (only beliefs vary, jews reject totally, christians made him god, Muslims are in "middle road"). You know what majority is in democracy.

So this is also what is teached in Islam, you just do not understand it correctly, but just interpretiate it as you wish.
__________________
This all was from my NEW (upraged and corrected) book in:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/

or in (at moment not yet totally upraged version, SMALL differences):

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/

Covers and amazing prophecy of Jesus compared to dominantly Islamic area:

http://www.geocities.com/science_in_quran/cover1
  #13  
Old 10-10-2005, 13:36
Karim33 Karim33 is offline
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Lightbulb Primarity (target?)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3
No acts412,

Karim33 is right when he says:
"Paul tried to kill ALL Christians, he had army for that.."

All right all right, just taking the mick (as Karim33 is probably doing as well).

[ADMIN: I have removed the paragraph that was here. I request you to be respectful of Muhammad and other prophets as your irreverence is against our rules. I won't hesitate in gining you warning points if you don't measure your words. For sake of record I have saved the paragraph elsewhere]

In reality we have evidence (from very recent events) that organised Pauline Christianity is in fact a force used by the poor to over-throw fascist states and the ruling junta elites. We saw in the collapse of communism in East Germany and Poland a use of Churches to fight the state. You can argue that Christianity itself was a religion set up by poor people for poor people, against powerful people. Christianity became too powerful (and thus corrupt) by its own success of promoting the well being of poor people against the rich. Eventually the Church itself became rich and corrupt and this enabled the rich state (eg Henry 8th, French Revolutionaries and German Princes) to take all the church wealth away again. Today, the poor and hudled masses of the 1900 exodus to the USA now dominate the world. Today, apparently, to be classified "the poor" in the USA still puts you 40% over the world average income. If Pauline Christianity goes the same way in USA as the European model the USA will decline because the rest of the world will fall out of love with all things American and others will attempt to be more aggressive against America. Less people will want Microsoft, Pepsi, BigMacs, and Levi's simply because they will represent the boss. After the retreat, no doubt Christianity's centre of gravity will be elsewhere, perhaps the Philipines.

Where ever the working class want to take control without violence there you will meet Pauline Christianity, and probably Jesus too. Be poor, work for peace, put flowers in your hair, be nice to people, but don't trust bosses.

Net
So Pauline Christianity gave you freedom, forgiveness, security, and especially lots of money and economic prosperity through example of "pure faith" for Lutheristic-christianity, and lots of other nice things (all by the way things also Islam has affected), but how much will it eventually help you when you are in hell from worshipping prophet as god?
__________________
This all was from my NEW (upraged and corrected) book in:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/

or in (at moment not yet totally upraged version, SMALL differences):

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/

Covers and amazing prophecy of Jesus compared to dominantly Islamic area:

http://www.geocities.com/science_in_quran/cover1
  #14  
Old 10-10-2005, 13:38
Karim33 Karim33 is offline
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Question Undercover christian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3
Respect?

Anyway I don't see why you edited my reply Karim33's is far more risky to put on a Muslim board. Its pretty clear to people who read novels that Karim33 had a metaphor in mind when he wrote:

"Paul tried to kill ALL Christians, he had army for that, but noticed that Christians just flew to other towns"

And that metaphor is for an Islamic figure - just look at his first picture for the clue.

Net.
Excuse me but with what kind of nutcase I´m I dealing with?
__________________
This all was from my NEW (upraged and corrected) book in:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/

or in (at moment not yet totally upraged version, SMALL differences):

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/

Covers and amazing prophecy of Jesus compared to dominantly Islamic area:

http://www.geocities.com/science_in_quran/cover1
  #15  
Old 10-10-2005, 14:12
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Tayeb Tayeb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karim33
Excuse me but with what kind of nutcase I´m I dealing with?
No name calling is allowed. Please check the rules.
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