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  #61  
Old 09-10-2009, 11:45
Netcurtains3 Netcurtains3 is offline
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my info comes from logical deduction of analysing the foundations stones of the 1960s ba'ath parties. It is not on the web, its a reasonable logical deduction from looking at 1960s arabic political parties that promoted secularisation. I think it is more or less impossible to be a strong believer in secularism and at the same time have a religious belief, in fact, it is best to assume a de facto atheism.

In fact, if the sightings were faked, it really then does prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Nasser was atheist. I rest my case. lol.
  #62  
Old 09-10-2009, 11:54
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Hi all,

I hope all is well with you as I haven't seen you here for a while. Welcome back.
What strikes me most is that Christian preachers show many times ignorance of their own scriptures or refuse to read them regularly, and just base their belief on faith only. I have noticed here when engaging Christians who are doing preaching work on the Web, that I find don't want to discuss the human nature of Jesus (peace be upon him).

Last edited by rutherdbrown : 09-10-2009 at 15:17.
  #63  
Old 09-10-2009, 11:56
Netcurtains3 Netcurtains3 is offline
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rutherdbrown ,
I'll discuss it with you. What do you want to know about it from a christian and/or atheist perspective (happy to discuss it either way)?
  #64  
Old 09-10-2009, 21:40
peacepro peacepro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3 View Post
I'm not saying you should give up on your religion, I am saying that basically its nonsense - but some of the best stuff can be nonsense - but you have to know that it is nonsense before you can do any good with it.

It would be better if you'd refrain from generalizing for others what you believe about your own idealogies.
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  #65  
Old 10-10-2009, 10:49
Netcurtains3 Netcurtains3 is offline
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PeacePro:

Apologies. Please take careful note where I put the capital letters - (hi-lightening where I have taken out my generalisations and where it is safe to put them in).

Religion is not all nonsense -obviously it CAN BE (not always) bad to drink too much, go in strong sun with your head uncovered or eat old pork from a hot climate. Some of the old wife sayings in religion do have some amount of merit.

What I meant to say is that it is CLEARLY nonsense from a RIGID SCIENTIFIC METHODOLOGY to believe in ANY religion based on books-sayings from 100s of years ago because CLEARLY there is not enough SCIENTIFIC evidence.

I know that scientific papers have been published on the Turin Shroud and some Lourdes Miracles have some scientific backing - but this evidence, still does not add up to a can of beans. This also goes for the science claims in the Qu'ran - anyone with half a brain (a quarter of a brain) can see its total and utter piffle from a RIGID SCIENTIFIC METHODOLOGY point of view.

Look matey, you believe, as I did before, because I was bought up that way. My ancestors like your ancestors looked at the religion and took it up because (a) the Celts (my ancestors) saw that Rome had a better civilisation then they did (Irish) and assumed therefore the religion was better. (b) This same rule applied to Pakistans-Far East take up of the Arabic religion. It was the civilisation that bought it, not the religion itself. (c) In modern times there has been a drift towards some Buddhist views - perhaps as we see the re-rise of Japanese-Chinese civilisation. But on the whole we see the rise of science and as such religion ends. Come on mate, you must see this, it is not rocket science. I hate it as much as you. I would love it if Catholicism was totally correct, its such a wonderful idea .....all my sins forgiven and I'm off to heaven - but the evidence is not there. There is little or no GOOD evidence for Moses (none for him at all), Jesus (a can of beans worth), Mohammed (only the Qu'ran and that only rarely mentions him). Its, SCEINTIFICALLY rubbish. I'm sorry but that is the SCIENTIFIC TRUTH.
  #66  
Old 10-10-2009, 16:34
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Dear John,

Why do you continue to repeat myths? Turin Shroud has nothing scientific and I debunked here. Now you come with other catholic make belief on Lourdes. Repeat the same text many times and does it become truth? Have you read the Bible or bothered to read everyting in Gospels? Were is there any scientificity. Bible and even Jesus in Gospels believed in flat earth, at least the writer wrote like that.

Really we discussed the historicity of Jesus and Muhammad. Jesus has little history apaprt from forged texts. Whilst Muhammad is historical and however some unscientific half-truths are launched Muhammad is truly historical.

Shall we again starting arguing about all that has been discussed and in these discussions all of your "truths" that were debunked, if you care to remember. Or is it being christian and specially catholic is to believe in myths and come back again and again with same arguments that were debunked here? I have memory and don't forget that you ran out of arguments.

Ma'a-salaama,
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  #67  
Old 10-10-2009, 16:36
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Please reread what was discussed on historical Muhammad and Jesus:

http://myiwc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5884
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  #68  
Old 10-10-2009, 16:44
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Please reread on Turin Shroud here:

http://www.myiwc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24989
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  #69  
Old 11-10-2009, 03:54
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A rather classic case of self-induced delusion. Goebel and GW Bush were ardent practitioners of this science. If you repeat lies and untruth long enough, you yourself will end up believing them. Question is, do we sane people encourage or discourage such people. Personally, I think we should leave them alone unless their specific actions could hurt others.

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  #70  
Old 11-10-2009, 06:11
peacepro peacepro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3 View Post
What I meant to say is that it is CLEARLY nonsense from a RIGID SCIENTIFIC METHODOLOGY to believe in ANY religion based on books-sayings from 100s of years ago because CLEARLY there is not enough SCIENTIFIC evidence.
Scientific Methodology ,today,consists of :

Formulation of Problem Statement -Observation -Experimentation-Hypothesis-Testing-Data Interpretation-
Formulation of Conclusion through Mathematics-Publication of findings .

Did you know who was the first person to have DEVELOPED the so called Scientific Methodology ,AS IT EXISTS TODAY ?.

Let me give you a hint: It was during the Dark Ages .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3 View Post
My ancestors like your ancestors looked at the religion and took it up because (a) the Celts (my ancestors) saw that Rome had a better civilisation then they did (Irish) and assumed therefore the religion was better
It would be silly of me to fall into your habit of ignorant assertions about others.

Apologies aside, is that the reason why you have abandoned religion at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3 View Post
It was the civilisation that bought it, not the religion itself.
This is similar to asserting that the hen came first,not the egg!

By the coming of Islam, yes I completely agree that it totally changed not just the Arabs, but the entire world.

The Dark Ages of Europe was the peak time when the Christian Church controlled the state-even the intellect & no wonder there was'nt any scientific or literary achievement.

During this time ie.7-16 century AD ,though,it was the Golden Age for all Muslim countries..

"During this period, artists, engineers, scholars, poets, philosophers, geographers and traders in the Islamic world contributed to the arts, agriculture, economics, industry, law, literature, navigation, philosophy, sciences, sociology, and technology, both by preserving and building upon earlier traditions and by adding inventions and innovations of their own."

" Muslim artists and scientists, princes and laborers together made a unique culture that has directly and indirectly influenced societies on every continent." -Howard R. Turner,Science in Medieval Islam,p.270,University of Texas Press(1997)

Various scientific ideas and discoveries flourished that were carried (copied?) by the Europeans into what led to Renaissance .Even the concept of 'Dark Ages'was introduced in the 1330s by an Italian scholar, Petrarch.

There is huge amount of literature upon this which clearly shows how,when it came,Islam completely revived the way the world thought .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3 View Post
In modern times there has been a drift towards some Buddhist views - perhaps as we see the re-rise of Japanese-Chinese civilisation. But on the whole we see the rise of science and as such religion ends.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_f...hism_are_there
It says there are 300+ million Buddhism followers today for a religion that started in around 500 BC.

Check this out ,it came just 2 days back:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/as...ion/index.html

Every fourth person today is a Muslim.

1.57+ Billion for a religion that started in 7th century AD !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3 View Post
Come on mate, you must see this, it is not rocket science. I hate it as much as you. I would love it if Catholicism was totally correct, its such a wonderful idea .....all my sins forgiven and I'm off to heaven - but the evidence is not there. There is little or no GOOD evidence for Moses (none for him at all), Jesus (a can of beans worth), Mohammed (only the Qu'ran and that only rarely mentions him). Its, SCEINTIFICALLY rubbish. I'm sorry but that is the SCIENTIFIC TRUTH.
First of all,Catholicism is not simply wrong because YOU think it is.

It lacks basic human values,that of fundamental equality,accountability ,justice for all -even without evidence,you can discern that.

The basic human character of "Do unto others what you would want for your self" -becomes inconsistent when you believe that somebody has already 'paid' for your sins.

Needless to say ,this belief would only lead to corruption and terror in the lands,the rich & powerful subjugating the poor & weak etc.

Whereas,the essence of Islam lies in its concept of personal accountability which helps in establishing justice,forging brotherhoods through tolerance eventually leading to peace and contentment for all as demonstrated during the Golden Age of Islam.

As far as the evidence for the Prophet of Islam is concerned,looks like you havent read the link I sent before:

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/quote1.html

This is only what famous Non-Muslims have said.Check out Zakir Naik's or Ahmed Deedat's works on the mention of Muhammad in various religious scriptures of today.

The Qur'an refers to 25 Prophets by NAME -
Musa (ah) 136 times,Isa (ah) 25 times,Muhammad (pbuh) 3 times etc.

But since the Quran was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh),it REFERS/ADRESSES him at several places.

This is evident when you open the Qur'an :

Say: "Obey Allah and obey the MESSENGER ... If you obey him you shall be on right guidance." (24:54)

O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the MESSENGER and make not vain your deeds! (47:33)

O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the MESSENGER and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves refer it to Allah and His MESSENGER if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is best and most suitable for final determination. (4:59)

O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His MESSENGER and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak). (8:20)

Those who follow the APOSTLE, the UNLETTERED PROPHET, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in Torah and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper. (7:157)

If anyone contends with the MESSENGER even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of Faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- what an evil refuge! (4:115)

O PROPHET! Fear Allah, and hearken not to the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites: verily Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom. But follow that which comes to thee by inspiration from thy Lord: for Allah is well acquainted with (all) that ye do.(33:1,2)

YOU are indeed one of the apostles,(36:3)

We sent YOU not, but as a Mercy for all creatures.(21:107)

Say: "If ye do love Allah, FOLLOW ME: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (3:31)
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Last edited by peacepro : 11-10-2009 at 06:22. Reason: mistake in editing.
  #71  
Old 11-10-2009, 14:02
Netcurtains3 Netcurtains3 is offline
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rutherdbrown,
The Green Mile MOVIE and BOOK - 1935 man with low IQ sentenced to death row for murdering and raping 2 ten year old girls. He was wrongly accused (he was black), This man is the human jesus. He is COMMONPLACE in christian literature. You simply have failed to see him,

Others,
I did not say the turin shroud or lourdes were right - I am more or less convinced they are wrong. What I was saying is that BOTH of them have articles published in recognised scientific journals - so they both got as far as presenting a scientific case. That case however is, as you say no good.
This goes for the Qu'ran in spades. I`m sorry if you cannot see it. I have absolutely nothing against people who BELIEVE and have FAITH but I do draw the line when people try to falsely back up their religion by using science. I have been there and done that and it is wrong. Plain wrong and a fraud against your fellow man. Tell it how it is. There is NOTHING written about Mohammed outside the Qu`ran within 100 years of his life..... however there is a great deal of stuff written about Jesus within 30 years of his death.
Neither writings amount to good LEGAL history as to be concidered LEGAL WITNESS it has to be NON-HEARSAY, it has to be an eye-witness. There are no written eye-witness accounts of Mohammed (there is of early muslims of course) - they are all second and third hand accounts. If I had to believe in a court room setting I would have to reject all the religions out of hand, most definitely Islam. Sorry.

All the science stuff in Qù ran is only science for muslims - its not science . Its not worth a discussion
  #72  
Old 11-10-2009, 15:10
Netcurtains3 Netcurtains3 is offline
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.....this draws me to my main argument.
It is a widely held perception by non-Muslims that muslims tend to "lie" (sorry) when they discuss religion.

Take us lot for example. It is my perception that you ALL as a general rule treat this as a game where you present one side of an arugment and I am meant to present the other. This though is not how I view it. I am looking at trying to discover the truth and all I appear to get are promotions for a religion. I am happy myself to sometimes be athiest and sometimes catholic and sometimes nothing at all because that is how humans are.

If you go to a typical Catholic site you will get numerous posts from people knocking minor or sometimes major aspects of their faith. Here it appears to be all or nothing. It is as if you are all slightly afraid to be open. Take this widely held thing that 25% of the world is Muslim. Even the survey people pointed out that there were problems with the Muslim responses - the responders were even "afraid" to say if they were sunni or shia. The survey people admitted in the small print that they really did not know what the individual muslims really believed.

But that is an aside, can you tell me why none of you can point out problems with your own faith or religion? You arre quite happy to point out the terrible things catholics have done in the past and now (and in the future) and you are quite happy to point out some "science" in the Qu'ran but no muslims ever come here and say stuff like "some of the Qu'ran does not tie in with science" or "we did a horrible thing x number of years ago". Why is that? You must know this makes you all untrustworthy to a Christian as Jesus said "if you cannot be trusted with a small thing then even what you have will be taken away". If you cannot come up with any minor or major flaws of your own religion then ORDINARY people are not going to trust you at all - full-stop. To a non-muslim you will appear as bold face liars.

Surely this must not come as a surprise to you. There must be a reason why you persist in the way you do? I am aware that christianity is meant to be the religion of "repentance" so perhaps we find it easier to say "I was wrong" or "we were wrong" but I doubt it, human nature is pretty universal. There must be another reason. Are you afraid to admit weakness because you actually feel very weak? Is that a possibility.
  #73  
Old 11-10-2009, 19:36
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Dear John,

You must have understood that this site is a Muslim site and has nothing to do with other faiths. We are not interested in myths of other religions, when they seem to us as fabricated.

Comparative religion is Islamic too, we discuss Jesus in light of Islam, and other religions in comparison with Islam. It is not a propaganda point for other faiths and their myths.

You have already clarified more than once that you are catholic and you have your faith. We respect your faith, but really we are interested in it, as it goes against a basic principle of Islam: no other God, but God Himself. He has no partners nor any equals, neither He is three-headed.

Qur'an is not a a scientific Book. If you have understood so, you are wrong. It is a Book of guidance for all. They may be there some scientific truths, but they are there only to reinforce faith. Nobody can claim that Qur'an is a scientific Book. I hope I have clarified, and let me tell you I am not ready to get into a debate on this matter. I don't know what you want. Do you seriously believe that you can convert anyone here who is Muslim in believing that a man (Jesus) can be god?


Ma'a-salaama,
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  #74  
Old 12-10-2009, 04:09
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Scientific Methodology ,today,consists of :

Formulation of Problem Statement -Observation -Experimentation-Hypothesis-Testing-Data Interpretation-
Formulation of Conclusion through Mathematics-Publication of findings .

Did you know who was the first person to have DEVELOPED the so called Scientific Methodology ,AS IT EXISTS TODAY ?.

Let me give you a hint: It was during the Dark Ages .
It was Alhazen (Abu Ali al-Ḥasan ibn al-Ḥasan ibn al-Haytham),(965- 1040c.).

"He was an Arab scientist.He made significant contributions to the principles of optics, as well as to anatomy, astronomy, engineering, mathematics, medicine, ophthalmology, philosophy, physics, psychology, visual perception, and to science in general with his introduction of the scientific method. "

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham

"Ibn al-Haytham's scientific method was very similar to the modern scientific method and consisted of the following procedures:
1. Observation
2. Statement of problem
3. Formulation of hypothesis
4. Testing of hypothesis using experimentation
5. Analysis of experimental results
6. Interpretation of data and formulation of conclusion
7. Publication of findings"

-Steffens, Bradley (2006), "Ibn al-Haytham: First Scientist", Morgan Reynolds Publishing


"According to the majority of the historians Ibn al-Haytham was the pioneer of the modern scientific method. With his book he changed the meaning of the term optics and established experiments as the norm of proof in the field. His investigations are based not on abstract theories, but on experimental evidences and his experiments were systematic and repeatable"

-Rosanna Gorini (2003), "Al-Haytham the Man of Experience, First Steps in the Science of Vision", International Society for the History of Islamic Medicine, Institute of Neurosciences, Laboratory of Psychobiology and Psychopharmacology, Rome, Italy
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  #75  
Old 12-10-2009, 07:13
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Originally Posted by Netcurtains3 View Post
Even the survey people pointed out that there were problems with the Muslim responses - the responders were even "afraid" to say if they were sunni or shia. The survey people admitted in the small print that they really did not know what the individual muslims really believed.

"This is no way reflects the religiosity of people, only their self-identification," Grim said. "We're trying to get the overall picture of religion in the world."
-From the survey by Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/as...ion/index.html

This survey reflects the overall number of the followers of Islam .
Not a measure of individual religiosity!

Muslims all over the world are at marked distinction,in that:

1.They follow the same scripture,in its entirely -the Qur'an

2.That names its followers as Muslims

3.Honours them with this title and distinguishes them .


Unlike their counterparts in Christianity,who:

1.Not even follow the same scripture .
Catholics believe in some 46 books which the Protestants do not accept .They take only 39 , leaving 7 -
all these additions & subtractions are from the book we commonly know of as the Bible.

2. Neither book names its followers as Christians.

for more differences check out :
http://www.ehow.com/about_5414932_pr...lic-bible.html

(these facts are disturbing! surely,atheism is much safer.
SO...why dont we have a count down before you switch back to it.)
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