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  #1  
Old 26-01-2010, 21:33
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Is this why God created sin and evil?

Is this why God created sin and evil?

New Jerusalem

2 Peter 3.9
The Lord is not being slow in carrying out his promises, as some people think he is; rather is he being patient with you, wanting nobody to be lost and everybody to be brought to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God wanting no one to be lost makes sense to me. After all, He loves us.
If God's will is supreme, and it is, then if He is not wanting any of us to be lost, you can bet your hat that none are lost.
I must conclude then that none are lost as God's will cannot be thwarted.

If none are lost, thanks to God not wanting to lose any of us, then that would eliminate the need for an everlasting hell.
An everlasting hell would be an immoral place by any measure anyway so this view of God not creating a hell seems right.

If we are all to repent then obviously we must all sin or do evil in some form or other.

God facilitates sin by giving us a sinning nature. We cannot fight our God given natures so sin comes rather easily to us. We all sin by nature. If God wanted sinless people then obviously He would create sinless natures. He does not.

It seems natural to me that God, who began, so to speak, as master of all the universe, would not create a hell where He is not master. That would be back sliding and is of course impossible for God. In the beginning God's continence was without blemish. To think that He would allow Himself to end, so to speak, with a black blemish on His white continence would be rather droll.

Is this why God gave us the gifts of sin and evil?
Is this what makes sin and evil part of God's perfect works?
Is this why in the garden of Eden, God said that things were good, even though Satan or the talking snake were there.
Was Satan, always under God's control, acting as a loyal opposition to make sure that Eve ate of the tree of knowledge that gives us our moral sense?

I admit that my view that a hell would be immoral leads me to read the above quote rather literally while knowing that the Vatican and Pope tell us not to take scripture literally even as I know that many do.

God only creates good and perfect works.
Does that make sin and evil good, within the larger picture of perfection?

I think that from His POV it must be so and by trying to look at things from that view, I can glimpse a view of the perfection that we live in even as I can see sin and evil with us.

Rather strange then that we should be thanking God for evil and sin.
Stranger still to think that God wants us to sin to insure that we do His will by repenting for them.

Thoughts.

Regards
DL
  #2  
Old 27-01-2010, 13:44
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Dear DL,

As I've said before the points of reference of Bible aren't of any interest for us as Muslims. I've asked you before which Bible? The one of Jeovah's Witnesses or Catholic or Anglican?

You quote OT and NT at will. Jews don't recognise NT. We as Muslims don't recognise both as we think they are not original revelations from God, and that they had human intereference.

So what are the terms of reference for a discussion? I'd say none as you base on scriptures that are not recognised by us as Muslims and your opinions are yours only and not of christianity or for that matter of judaism vis a vis Islam, as this is the objective of this forum.

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  #3  
Old 29-01-2010, 20:02
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Originally Posted by Tayeb View Post
Dear DL,

As I've said before the points of reference of Bible aren't of any interest for us as Muslims. I've asked you before which Bible? The one of Jeovah's Witnesses or Catholic or Anglican?

You quote OT and NT at will. Jews don't recognise NT. We as Muslims don't recognise both as we think they are not original revelations from God, and that they had human intereference.

So what are the terms of reference for a discussion? I'd say none as you base on scriptures that are not recognised by us as Muslims and your opinions are yours only and not of christianity or for that matter of judaism vis a vis Islam, as this is the objective of this forum.

Ma'a-salaama,
All of the bibles you mention have basically the same versesI quoted so pick whichever you like.

If you do not want to compare religious thought then you should not call this place Comparative Religion.

Regards
DL
  #4  
Old 30-01-2010, 12:41
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Dea DL,

You are not comparing religious thought. You are proposing your religious beliefs on texts we don't consider to be authentic and have nothing to do with Islam, or in comparision with Islam, the purpose of this forum.

You say things that we as Muslims consider bombastic and abhorrent to our beliefs that a man like Jesus was a god. I have removed your other post named "Jesus suckered God and became a better Man/God. Man 1 God 0".

Belief that a man can be converted into god is not new. It wasn't invented by chrisitianity. Hindus converted men into gods and Mithraism in Rome had similar beliefs as christianity has now. In fact Mithraism was a rival of Chrisitianity that turned Jesus into god.

Ma'a-salaama,
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  #5  
Old 31-01-2010, 15:19
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Originally Posted by Tayeb View Post
Dea DL,

You are not comparing religious thought. You are proposing your religious beliefs on texts we don't consider to be authentic and have nothing to do with Islam, or in comparision with Islam, the purpose of this forum.

You say things that we as Muslims consider bombastic and abhorrent to our beliefs that a man like Jesus was a god. I have removed your other post named "Jesus suckered God and became a better Man/God. Man 1 God 0".

Belief that a man can be converted into god is not new. It wasn't invented by chrisitianity. Hindus converted men into gods and Mithraism in Rome had similar beliefs as christianity has now. In fact Mithraism was a rival of Chrisitianity that turned Jesus into god.

Ma'a-salaama,
Interesting.
I see the Bible as a consolidation of most of the ancient thinking and religions.

Almost nothing of Christianity is original.

Since Islam is based on it, then it also would be a consolidation of beliefs that Islam just tried to update.

It is all fiction and to those who believe in miracles, fantasy.

Regards
DL
  #6  
Old 31-01-2010, 16:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Interesting.
I see the Bible as a consolidation of most of the ancient thinking and religions.

Almost nothing of Christianity is original.

Since Islam is based on it, then it also would be a consolidation of beliefs that Islam just tried to update.

It is all fiction and to those who believe in miracles, fantasy.

Regards
DL

You are wrong and show again ignorance of Islam. I have already informed you that we don't accept the texts in the Bible as basis of our beliefs. Our beliefs are based on the Holy Qur'an and the traditions of the prophet Muhammad. Islam is not based on the texts that you want to quote.

I have already made clear that you have your views and we have ours.

You are proposing in a Muslim discussion forum your personal views based on texts we don't accept. So what can you achieve? Do you sincereley beleive that somehow we can be converted into your beliefs? Surely you don't want to discuss anything but to propose your views. So be it, you have your views. And so?

Ma'a-salaama,
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