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  #211  
Old 13-02-2010, 19:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Vast mercy to only those who know him.
To those who do not know him, hell forever.
Injustice.

Is it justice that a man can only sin for 120 years and then must suffer in hell for 1200000000000000000000000000+ years?

You limit God by saying that he cannot have mercy on those who do not know him or reject him.

You make God a slave to us just as scripture says that he wants to make slaves of us.

Man's best destiny to you then must be man as slave forever to God.
Surely any good God would have a better destiny planned for mankind.

Regards
DL
Dear DL,

You talk about God. Before we go ahead can you specify if you consider Jesus to be "god?. Because if you consider Jesus to be "god", it is futile to discuss the nature of God with you as you consider a man to be god.
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  #212  
Old 14-02-2010, 08:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Vast mercy to only those who know him.
To those who do not know him, hell forever.
Injustice.

Is it justice that a man can only sin for 120 years and then must suffer in hell for 1200000000000000000000000000+ years?

You limit God by saying that he cannot have mercy on those who do not know him or reject him.

You make God a slave to us just as scripture says that he wants to make slaves of us.

Man's best destiny to you then must be man as slave forever to God.
Surely any good God would have a better destiny planned for mankind.

Regards
DL
When God himself invites the mankind to know him, then not knowing him is a sin. 120 years of sin are sins against God's orders. He being the greatest must be listened and followed. If He is not listened then the punishment is hell and is the right punishment. As far as can and can't is concerned God can do anything. He can throw all muslims in hell and all non muslims in heaven. What we talk here about it that in the scriptures He Himself has said that those who will follow my instructions will go to heaven and others will go to hell. And. He will do it because He doesn't tell a lie. What He has said He will do. Otherwise He can do what He wishes.
  #213  
Old 14-02-2010, 15:47
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Originally Posted by Tayeb View Post
Dear DL,

You talk about God. Before we go ahead can you specify if you consider Jesus to be "god?. Because if you consider Jesus to be "god", it is futile to discuss the nature of God with you as you consider a man to be god.
To believe that Jesus is God I would have to see Jesus as a half breed chimera born of a bestial relationship between God, one species and a human, another species.
I wonder how Mrs. God feels about God's bastard son.
Perhaps some of the ladies here could fill us in on Mrs. Gods feelings.
If God is 100 % God and Jesus is 100 % God and 100 % man then our chimera Jesus God is superior to God # 1.
No wonder God does not return. Jesus has bested him. No come back for the loser God.

Truth is, I do not tie a good prophet and rabbi like Jesus to God, that would make him the son of the genocidal maniac of the O T.

There is only one God and God, like Allah, is a title only.

All that is known of this God has been written by man. Inspired by God perhaps but always man on the pen.

Regards
DL
  #214  
Old 14-02-2010, 15:54
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Originally Posted by sipraomer View Post
When God himself invites the mankind to know him, then not knowing him is a sin. 120 years of sin are sins against God's orders. He being the greatest must be listened and followed. If He is not listened then the punishment is hell and is the right punishment. As far as can and can't is concerned God can do anything. He can throw all muslims in hell and all non muslims in heaven. What we talk here about it that in the scriptures He Himself has said that those who will follow my instructions will go to heaven and others will go to hell. And. He will do it because He doesn't tell a lie. What He has said He will do. Otherwise He can do what He wishes.
Spoken like a true slave.

If you think that God's best wishes and expectations for mankind is to be slaves then follow your God.

Mine, like any good father, wants his children to meet or exceed whatever he is.
I do not want my children to be slaves.

Is that your best expectations for your children?

If so, when scripture urges us to be perfect, it must mean to be a perfect slave. be a slave if you want and give up the free will that God or nature has given you.

BTW, your sense of justice is immoral.
Hell is arguably an immoral construct and God would not need or want such.

Regards
DL
  #215  
Old 14-02-2010, 21:00
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Dear DL,

I don't know what you base on about Jesus and his god like nature or even being better? You don't seem to have read the gospels. He showed to be human.

I request you moderate your language and not to be vulgar. If you persist I will ban you from here.

Anyhow we as Muslims believe that if we don't follow His orders we risk eternal condemnation. We believe He is Merciful and forgives whoever He pleases.

I beg to differ from you and I repeat you have your belefs and we as Muslims have our beliefs, to you your way and to us our way. Let's keep the matters as they are.

Ma'a-salaama,
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  #216  
Old 15-02-2010, 20:00
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Originally Posted by Tayeb View Post
Dear DL,

I don't know what you base on about Jesus and his god like nature or even being better? You don't seem to have read the gospels. He showed to be human.

I request you moderate your language and not to be vulgar. If you persist I will ban you from here.

Anyhow we as Muslims believe that if we don't follow His orders we risk eternal condemnation. We believe He is Merciful and forgives whoever He pleases.

I beg to differ from you and I repeat you have your belefs and we as Muslims have our beliefs, to you your way and to us our way. Let's keep the matters as they are.

Ma'a-salaama,
Your "eternal condemnation" speaks to the existence of hell.

If I may, I wrote this elsewhere and it speaks to the issue.

Oh no.
Not a literalist reader of scripture.
God, if I can use an analogy, began with a pure white countenance as it applies to Him and all of what He was and created.
You would have Him suffer a blight or black spot, if you will, on His pure white self.
White by itself is perfect.
Just when in God's time line do you see Him placing this black spot on His otherwise perfectly white countenance.
Where did He put it?
On His nose perhaps?
A hell is demonstrably an immoral construct and not something God would create.
Think again for the first time.
------------

I agree that Jesus was a human.

Our first God was a human and our last shall be as well.
Allah is evolving perfection.

------------

"forgives whoever He pleases."

Oh my!

What a game for God to play! Create a place for eternal bliss as well as a place for eternal suffering. Then create beings whom you love dearly and watch over. And in the end, decide which to consider "trash" and "throw away" into the place for eternal suffering and which to cling to and love in the place for eternal bliss. Even man, with all his faults, is greater and more responsible.
Perhaps that is why Christians follow Jesus.
------------

"you your way and to us our way. Let's keep the matters as they are."

You disappoint me.
I thought I was investigating a religion that was to rule the world and not just a small piece of it.

Many of the ways of the Secularists and others including Christians and other infidels, are inferior to Islam, if Islam is properly applied.

To not verbally attack such would be wrong.

Do Muslims men not have balls.

For evil to grow, all good men need do is nothing.

If Islam is not growing then it is shrinking.

I guess I will have to look elsewhere for a religion of men.

Regards
DL
  #217  
Old 17-02-2010, 14:43
sipraomer sipraomer is offline
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Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Spoken like a true slave.

If you think that God's best wishes and expectations for mankind is to be slaves then follow your God.

Mine, like any good father, wants his children to meet or exceed whatever he is.
I do not want my children to be slaves.

Is that your best expectations for your children?

If so, when scripture urges us to be perfect, it must mean to be a perfect slave. be a slave if you want and give up the free will that God or nature has given you.

BTW, your sense of justice is immoral.
Hell is arguably an immoral construct and God would not need or want such.

Regards
DL
There is a difference between Faher children relationship and God human relationship. Secondly , yes I am His slave and I am proud to be His slave. Hell is not immoral. How is it immoral? It is a place for those who don't listen to God. Scriptures urge us to be perfect but since no one can be perfect, God will give reward to people having more good in them than bad. It means that the ones who do more good deeds than bad deeds. he is more good than bad.


Abusing Jesus gives me an impression that you are a jew or an athiest. You have used irrational and foul language against a Prophet we believe in as a Prophet. Please abstain from using foul language and follow the rules of the forum. How hell is immoral please elaborate. It is very simple . God gives punishmnt to those who don't listen to him and after doing sins don't repent.

A father tells his children to study and don't waste their time in video games or wandering around.When they don't listen he scolds and nags them. When his children don't listen to him and don't correct themselves while given a lot of time for their correction then at last the father punishes them by leaving them to experience harsh realites of life and leaving them alone to suffer in times of difficulty. His breaking of contact with them is his biggest punishment.


God also punishes us in this world . For instance when He says don't go near to unmarital sex and if we don't listen to him, he destroys the family unit of our society destroying the culture. if we don't act on what he says , he places unrest in our hearts. When we don't listen to him he brings disease to us. If we start following his orders he lifts his punishment and rewards us in this world as well as world hereafter.
  #218  
Old 17-02-2010, 19:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipraomer View Post
There is a difference between Faher children relationship and God human relationship. Secondly , yes I am His slave and I am proud to be His slave. Hell is not immoral. How is it immoral? It is a place for those who don't listen to God. Scriptures urge us to be perfect but since no one can be perfect, God will give reward to people having more good in them than bad. It means that the ones who do more good deeds than bad deeds. he is more good than bad.
You may want to re-read above but I can reiterate for you.
Just answer this simple question.

Is it justice that a man can only sin for 120 years and then must suffer in hell for 1200000000000000000000000000+ years?

Quote:

Deist is my closest label with some Gnostic Christian thrown in.
Your God and mine are the same. We just see them differently.


You have used irrational and foul language against a Prophet we believe in as a Prophet. Please abstain from using foul language and follow the rules of the forum. How hell is immoral please elaborate. It is very simple . God gives punishmnt to those who don't listen to him and after doing sins don't repent.

A father tells his children to study and don't waste their time in video games or wandering around.When they don't listen he scolds and nags them. When his children don't listen to him and don't correct themselves while given a lot of time for their correction then at last the father punishes them by leaving them to experience harsh realites of life and leaving them alone to suffer in times of difficulty. His breaking of contact with them is his biggest punishment.
When I speak to the issue of the reality of Noah's flood, I like to say that God does not kill, He cures.

In this case I would say that God does not torture, He cures.

Think Doctor. Not Fiend.

Discipline is good and I like the way Muslims keep prostitution down as well as some other evils but to allow it to go to punishment and torture would be wrong.


Quote:
God also punishes us in this world .
God does not micro manage.

If He did, this and about 40,000 more a year would not happen.

http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/od..._in_unfair.htm

That would not be moral.

Quote:
For instance when He says don't go near to unmarital sex and if we don't listen to him, he destroys the family unit of our society destroying the culture. if we don't act on what he says , he places unrest in our hearts. When we don't listen to him he brings disease to us. If we start following his orders he lifts his punishment and rewards us in this world as well as world hereafter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Is all I need say for the rest of your whine.

Am I speaking to a man or a woman?

God did not make man to be a slave. Especially, I thought, Musliums who are supposed to want to be THEE force on earth.

Do ye not know that ye are Gods.

Regards
DL
  #219  
Old 18-02-2010, 03:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Is all I need say for the rest of your whine.

Am I speaking to a man or a woman?

God did not make man to be a slave. Especially, I thought, Musliums who are supposed to want to be THEE force on earth.

Do ye not know that ye are Gods.

Regards
DL
You said before you met God. Did He give you a message? How do you the entity you met was God?

Is Jesus god? I am not asking whether he was God's son. Did he ascend to become god?

Is Bible(s) God's Word for you?

Before we discuss God's punishment we need to ascertain what you think to be God.
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  #220  
Old 18-02-2010, 15:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayeb View Post
You said before you met God. Did He give you a message?
Yes.

He confirmed my world view of reality and chastised me to think more demographically.


Quote:
How do you the entity you met was God?
How did any of the other prophets know?

One has to evaluate if the knowledge given creates a better human or not.


Quote:
Is Jesus god?
If he were, Noah's genocide would not have happened.

If Noah believed in the sanctity of human life, and lived by Jesus’ command to do to your neighbor as yourself....he would refuse to build the ark. It is a moral issue, Had Noah done that, God would have had to kill everyone, or no one. This sort of moral position is upheld occasionally when a person refuses to back down, even at the cost of his life. We revere a person like this, call them heroes. This is NOT the cloth Noah was cut from.


Quote:
I am not asking whether he was God's son.
We are all sons of God.


Quote:
Did he ascend to become god?
As we all do.

Quote:
Is Bible(s) God's Word for you?
Absolutely not.

All that has been written about God has been written by man.
Trust no man. Trust only in God.

Quote:
Before we discuss God's punishment we need to ascertain what you think to be God.
God, as most know the term, is a human construct built from contact with our true God, a cosmic consciousness. Shaman and prophets where the roots.

Bibles and Words from the various religions are mythical best guesses.
They all have value but should not be taken literally.
IE. One does not start a logical discorse with a belief in fantasy and talking snakes as literal readers must.

Our first God was a man and the last will be as well.

Who but a man can voice the will of Allah?

Regards
DL
  #221  
Old 19-02-2010, 21:14
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Dear DL,

You have explained yourself. You believe in a mix of a man and cosmic entity. I would guess Jesus to be your god. Well since this matter cannot be anymore discussed, I'll leave you with my earlier words, you choose your way and we as Muslims choose our way.

I'm locking all forums. Please check the statement from Admin.

This islamic project which included discussion forums is being closed down.

Ma'a-salaama,
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  #222  
Old 19-02-2010, 21:19
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Originally Posted by Tayeb View Post
Dear DL,

You have explained yourself. You believe in a mix of a man and cosmic entity. I would guess Jesus to be your god. Well since this matter cannot be anymore discussed, I'll leave you with my earlier words, you choose your way and we as Muslims choose our way.

I'm locking all forums. Please check the statement from Admin.

This islamic project which included discussion forums is being closed down.

Ma'a-salaama,
Too bad.

A good waste of Vatican II's raprochement.

We both lose.

Regards
DL
 


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